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Proviso Probe

Friday, September 01, 2006

ETHNICITY, immigration march and effects of immigration [MP]

Chicago Tribune (Sara Olkon, with Oscar Avila, Darnell Little and Rhianna Wisniewski contributing):
In a show of how far immigrants have moved to fulfill the American dream, scores of immigrant advocates will skip their barbecues and lakefront picnics this weekend to join in a 44.9-mile walk from Chinatown to the home office of House Speaker Dennis Hastert in Batavia.

Some of the supporting organizations include: SEIU Local 1, Chinese American Service League, Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights, Council of Islamic Organizations, SEIU, Korean American Resource and Cultural Center and Rainbow Push Coalition.

The march will stop in Melrose Park on the way to Hastert's office.

Does immigration hurt workers already in the United States?

At ePlubris Media Duke1676 sites multiple studies and argues that the effect of immigration on existing workers is non-existent or negligible.
[A] new study released yesterday found that there was no evidence to support the claim that increased immigration over the last fifteen years has had any ill effect on the job market for the country as a whole....

[At] the state level there was no correlation between rapid increases in the foreign born population and employment of native born Americans.

[Another] study found that there is "a positive and significant effect of immigration on the average wage of U.S.-born workers" and that there is only "a small negative effect of immigration on wages of uneducated US born workers and a positive wage effect on all other US-born workers."

If the adverse effects of immigration are minor or non-existent, why try to reduce immigration?

The people who want to reduce immigration claim to want to improve wages and working conditions. Why not just improve wages and working conditions directly? Or less indirectly by making it easier for unions to organize low wage workers?

[UPDATE: See CBS2.]

47 Comments:

  • I've never had nor do I now have a problem with immigration per se. But, I have a real problem with illegal immigration, and no statistic, whether in regard to the minimal or even positive impact immigrants have on the "native" workforce, is likely to change my mind about that.

    By definition, illegal immigrants should not be present nor be working in the U.S. If even one illegal immigrant supplants a legal citizen from a job, that is one job loss too many for me, regardless of what the statistics show.

    Honestly, I'm sick of the marches and I view them as just an evasive tactic to procure illegal immigrants a "free lunch". I am reminded of the people who have gone through the long, often pain-staking, and often costly process of procurring visas, green cards, and citizenship --- the people who have done it the right way. Let them have jobs and not shed any tears for the illegals who chose to ignore our laws. The people who believe as I do may not be marching against illegal immigration, but, believe me, they're mad as hell about illegal immigration and attempts to procure illegal immigrants amnesty. These "amnesty marches" are only going to go so far before a tidal wave backlash is unleashed.

    By Anonymous Jose (Not), at 12:18 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:34 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • I wonder what local Politician will be present in support of these people. I wonder if Serpico or Pasquali, or Yarbrough or Moore, Or Henderson, or Welch or Kathy Ryan will be there? If yes, why and if not, why not?
    We hispanics will be present to see who shows there support for us, and who does,nt.
    There are already a few elected officials who have let us down, who will see what there response will be next time they run for public office!
    One township trustee, who voted against us and a poltical operator who works for a state rep. who screwed us out of a grant for hispanics! Both these two will be defeated and made examples off to others to be aware!

    By Anonymous Beware, at 12:40 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • To Beware:

    Don't overplay your political power. A sizable percentage of Hispanics are here illegally and can't vote and another sizable portion, here legally, couldn't give a damn about voting; they're just interested in flying their Mexican flags, talking in Spanish, and making money and sending it back to Mexico. And don't think that politicians who vote for amnesty for the illegal alien criminals are going to do so without strings attached or negative consequences. Stick a majority pin into your Hispanic voters' bag of hot air and watch it spontaneously deflate.

    By Anonymous Jesse (not), at 12:57 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • To Jose(Not) or Jesse(no)aka Racist Don Sloan, your fear about Hispanic not voting is not well grounded. Hispanics do vote and in large numbers, and will continue growing for the forseeable future.
    Your stupid comments on Mexicans in Proviso and in chicago is just that, rascist fear of others who have contributed enormous amounts to the great Country of ours the USA!
    Now Mr. Sloan, both you and that other rascist I discussed with you, will be made examples off, because it is the right thing to do. Continuing your crying, it won't matter, your gonig down, your gonig to lose any election you run for in the future and you'll know it is because of those Mexican people you so much hate !!!!

    By Anonymous Jose(yes), at 1:55 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • Jose (yes):

    You wrote, " ... Mexicans in Proviso and in chicago (and) others (who) have contributed enormous amounts to the great Country of ours the USA".

    Right, come to think of it, Mexicans have contributed enormous numbers of burritos, trimmed shrubbery, and nickels and dimes (on items originally priced at one dollar or more) at yard sales.

    Even more so, Mexicans have contributed to the increased crime rates in many area of the U.S. including Chicago, the poor academic showing of our elementary and high schools, and the run down nature of many of our neighborhoods.

    Mexico, taken as a hole, excuse me, I mean as a whole, is one gigantic cesspool made that way, by, guess who, Mexicans. Now, many of these same illiterates, good-for-nothings, and slobs want to take what time, effort, and a lot of committment have made into a great nation and turn it into another cesspool. No thanks, I'm not going for it.

    It's one thing if Mexicans want to break their own laws and step into their own shit, but it's another thing for them to come to the U.S. and try to lower its standard. Many of us would rather not be exposed to your stench. You can call these statements rascist, but, you know what, they're still true.

    By Anonymous Juan (not), at 3:50 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • Don(not), I guess so big shot, you must be right! I do remember the Irish shit that came to our shores to destroy this nation, and cause high crime rates and alcohol and drug abuse problems back when they came! I alsdo remember that "No Irish need apply" and that Irieland has always been a cesspool of trash and the birthplace of our Hillbillies!!!!!
    Now why won't the modern Irish get real jobs, other than jobs stealing from the taxpayers.Why can't irish ever be a tradesman or something worthy, except they all figure out a way how to live of are taxes by getting county jobs,fireman jobs, policeman jobs,judges ,politicians all these jobs are to steal, which is your very nature!!
    Princess Margaret of England once was heard making a comment in Chicago while on a official visit , that the "Irish were all pigs,dirty and were born stealing" and she also stated " the irish are the white man's burden becuae they truely are not like the europeans"!
    I think America would be better off without oyu and your gypsy,hillbilly kind, so please leave and yes, we will give you some potatoes on the way back, so the British can't starve your king again!!
    Remember it was the Spanish who found America,punk!!!!
    Oh, by the way ,is it true the reason you hate Mexicans so much is because they sodomized in jail?

    By Anonymous Response to Don Sloan, at 4:35 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • To "response to don sloan" and all similar others who wish to extricate themselves from the "ignoramus" category, a good place to start might be to avoid confusing irritation for insight.

    Your analogy comparing the contemporary illegal Mexican immigration influx to the Irish influx decades ago is, quite simply, a bullshit ranting. First of all, for the most part, the Irish did not come here illegally. Secondly, regardless of what you and the oft-quoted and scholarly Princess Margaret allegedly said about the Irish, many of them significantly contributed to the foundation upon which this nation's greatness was laid. You criticize them for, of all things, being firemen, policemen, politicians, and judges. Perhaps, if they were lawn mower jockeys, neighborhood trollers looking for cum-stained used mattresses in front of peoples' houses, or penny-ante, union-busting "Mr. Fix-its", that would give them more esteem? While you might question the nobility and virtue of some people in such jobs as fireman, policeman, and judge, these people in these types of jobs were and are citizens. You get it ... citizens. They're legal, asshole. Does that register in your limited synaptic structure?

    But, shit-for-brains, aside from that, what's your argument? That because some Irish were and are bad, Mexicans are good? Regardless of the Irish, regardless of the Jews, regardless of the African-Americans, regardless of the Italians, regardless of fucking dummies like you, illegal Mexican aliens bring down this country and should be summarily and harshly dealt with. What we don't need in this world is another Mexico.

    By the way, who the hell cares who discovered America? What does that have to do with illegal Mexican immigrants? Get your head out of your ass and give it a long douche.

    By Anonymous Carlos (not), at 5:41 PM, September 01, 2006  

  • The greatness of this nation was built with many hands and many faces not just the Irish. Yes, that also included the Mexicans who by the way fought side by side with Americans and performed reconaissance, check out Aztec Eagles. Actually there was not an immigration law until about 1920. Undocumented people are contributing to the economy and their fake social security goes into a kitty fund for crooked politicians. Unlike, American citizens who can use (maybe) social security benefits; these undocumented people will not be able to. So here it is: a $5 billion dollar social security investment goes where? To balance our 12 trillion dollar budget deficit.

    Here's another thing - I don't see anyone vying for the position of maid at O'Hare (which was Arellano's job) prior to ICE threatening deportation.

    I won't even address your degrading comments that are only meant to demonize an ethnic group. Obviously you are a racist; be proud...I here various Nazi groups have reogranized themselves.


    Also, legal and illegal applies to the law not a person. When you go over the speed limit are you considered illegal for breaking the law? I'll tell you my argument fear mongerers and xenophones cause confusion and chaos. You can't reason with a racist or a bigot.

    Since when did people become less human to you. Love your neighbor as you love thyself.

    I guess you missed HIS point.

    By Anonymous BorderAngels, at 9:15 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • To Carlos(not), you stupid ignorant slut, I guess going to college was not in your plans and I guess by your feelings you can't afford Mexican Landscapers and nannies, because your the an American Failure who never , ever reached the American Dream! For your information the majority of the Irish, as well as the Majority of european immigrants, as well as from other countries around world who sent immigrants to our beloved shores came here illegally and if you think everyone came thru Ellis Island, your very mistaken!!Also why is Immigration not deporting all those illegal Irish and Polish immigrants in Chicago?
    Now, you immature,sex crazed, sex deprived imbecile, get your facts straight and remember, you to can achieve the American Dream by working hard and keeping your word, and not bad mouthing others!!!

    By Anonymous Irish are illegal,Thank god for the British, at 9:17 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • I don't know the dumbass was that said Mexicans contribute to crime rates. Crime does not segregate race. In fact wasn't Dahmmer anglo?

    Listen social ills are in every race so get over your "clean white society". Its a fantasy.

    I guess you are really jealous of Mexicans maybe because your load doesn't shoot anymore, let alone rise to the occassion. More like a hold up instead of a stick up these days - eh?

    Be for real you need an education Jose and Carlos not. Stay in school and maybe you too can achieve great things.

    By Anonymous AntiXenophobes, at 9:51 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • Son of immigrant said,

    To all of those who are so worry about being so legal. Stop eating at restaurants who do you think cooks your meals. Remember the only people who are not immigrants in this county are native americans and we the great country that we are discriminate against them.

    The economy need illegal immigrants, don't think politicians like Bush and others are given them a break they are doing it because its good for their business and the USA.

    Just remember our fathers all immigrated to this country and the reason past immigrants came legally and now the are coming illegally is because we change the laws so these people could not improve themselves and can pay the minimum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:14 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • Son of immigrant said,

    To all of those who are so worry about being so legal. Stop eating at restaurants who do you think cooks your meals. Remember the only people who are not immigrants in this county are native americans and we the great country that we are discriminate against them.

    The economy need illegal immigrants, don't think politicians like Bush and others are given them a break they are doing it because its good for their business and the USA.

    Just remember our fathers all immigrated to this country and the reason past immigrants came legally and now the are coming illegally is because we change the laws so these people could not improve themselves and can pay the minimum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:16 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • BorderAngels:

    Let's start with your comments. The terms "illegal alien" and "illegal immigrant" are perfectly acceptable. In fact, these terms are used in federal publications as well as in common parlance. Enough said for your incorrect distinction on that issue.

    Then, you wrote, "Undocumented people (by the way, can people be "undocumented"?) are contributing to the economy and their fake social security goes into a kitty fund for crooked politicians". You throw out this general statement like you know it to be true. Tell me, do you know it to be true? Where are the "kitties" that you speak of? Who are the crooked politicians that benefit from them? And, how general is the occurrence of this phenomenon? Of course, you then go on to state, in a rather contradictory fashion, " ... a $5 billion dollar social security investment (from illegal aliens) goes where? To balance our 12 trillion dollar budget deficit". So does it go to the crooked politicians or the government? Are they one in the same? Why don't you play your ignorance safe and say, "both".

    That you don't see anyone vying for the position of maid at O'Hare would confirm what I'm led to believe about you by reading your posting ---that you're blind to the facts. Contact the airlines' and their concessionaires' human resource departments and ask about the turn-out they get when such openings occur and are advertised. Then get back to me, o.k.?

    I am not stating that illegal Mexican immigrants are less human than me. I am stating that they are (1). illegally in the country, (2). a chronic problem in a number of spheres including socioeconomic, and that (3). they ought to be made to pay a high price for breaking the law. By the way, if you plug in the words, "famous Mexican-American", on Google, you might find a list of 30 names (including such luminaries as Oscar De La Hoya and Cheech Marin). Don't you find it interesting that, as long as they've been here and in such large numbers, only 30 allegedly famous Mexican-Americans are listed? They sure have made one helluva contribution to the upper echelons of our society!

    By Anonymous Illegal Aliens (not), at 10:58 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • "Daughter of Immigrants...

    No matter where we come from or how we got here, we're not going anywhere.

    Most of you critizise us Mexicans and enjoy making yourselfs feel better by trying to step above those who do not have much.

    Immigrants we are, as everyone else in this country, except for the Native Americans. I am sure many of you can trace your roots to the Mayflower, right? And if you are really as inteligent as you want us to believe, remember that California, Texas and other states used to belong to Mexico; our of our "smart" presidents chose to pay the U.S. back the money it had lend us by giving those states to America...with people included; so you see, there are many Mexicans who are American!

    I can understand the frustration that some of you have because we the Mexicans and Immigrants are here, but guess what? If we weren't, many businesses would not exist. How many of you so called "americans" are willingo to work for minimal wages? how many of you are willing to work 14 to 16 hours per day, in order to eat? and how many of you can say with pride and dignity that everything you own, you worked your tail off for it?

    It takes a certain individual to not feel threaten by the growing minority; yes, the giant has woken up, and will not be grateful anymore with the leftovers. Our parents have worked hard!!! We have not gone into welfare only because we feel that america owns us something. We have struggled in order to achieve and become educted. We have shed tears for many of our people who have died trying to reach america, and yet, you guys who "belong" here, and have so many opportunities, you complain! When do you stop bitching and complaining about things that you don't want to make the effort to change?

    We the immigrants don't own you anything...if anything, america has become a better place because of us "wet-bags"! We clean your homes, we mow your lawn, we cook your meals, and we even help raise your children. What do we ask for? Just respect. Respect for being a human just like you; respect for being willing to work; respect for having to accept the descrimination that we live and face each day.

    I'm not very religious, but, would any of you deny getting, if badly needed, a blood transfussion from a Mexican, immigrant? My blood is as red as yours, and many of my country man are fighting for this, YOUR country! How many of you are out there risking your lives for a piece of land that, technicaly, does not belong to us?

    For those of you who have made descriminatory comments, all I can say is that ignorance and stupidity are a choice...you chose to stay that way. Me? I am proud of my parents, and I am proud of what I have achieved in this, the land of freedom and justice for ALL.

    By Anonymous Proud daughter of immigrants..., at 11:19 AM, September 02, 2006  

  • Illegal Aliens Not:

    The IRS is quite aware of the contributions made by illegal immigration to the Social Security budget. Also, it is no secret the social security has been pilfered for years by our government. Please, do yourself a favor and read other articles besides SOS forum and VDARE.

    You are ignorant, I never said that O'Hare wouldn't get flooded with people applying for the maid position. I meant most of them won't be white. In fact, O'Hare will probably hire another immigrant to do the job. 2 reasons: Cost effectiveness and capitalism.

    Here, I'll even throw in a few links to occupy your little mind:

    http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2002_pay.asp

    Here is another link, yes our hardworking tax dollars have been pilfered by the government - Imagine that! LOL!!

    http://vagabondia.blogspot.com/2005/05/social-security-is-ponzi-scheme.html
    The answer to that lies back in 1990 when a Democrat Congress and a Republican President codified the Budget Enforcement Act taking Social Security completely off-budget. In short, that means the Social Security outlays, revenues, and Trust Fund will not be counted as part of the general government budget, but rather as a separate account entirely. It turns out that this did not create an actual barrier between the general government spending fund and Social Security. When the Social Security system accrues surplus revenues from employment taxes, which it has done each year since 1982, those surplus funds are pilfered from the Trust Fund and spent on other government programs (i.e. military, education, environment). <----Does that not sound like pilfering to you - It sure does to me.

    You are a crack up you remind of the nursery rhyme: "Three blind mice". You, Yourself and your stupid self. hahaaahaa!

    As far as 30 famous Mexican Americans, you lack research and have a bad case of diarhea of the mouth: You should just be silent -Rather be thought of as a fool and remain silent then to speak and remove all doubt. You are the biggest fool!!

    Try Wikipedia. Your google like a 14 year old and do realize that there are many categories to choose from for famous people. We have the arts, authors, businesspeople and so on:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Famous_Mexicans


    Alberto Arai an architect, theorist and writer
    Agustín Arriete
    Luis Barragán, an architect
    Lázaro Blanco, photographer and educator
    Ángel Boliver
    Federico Cantú Garza, a painter, sculptor and engraver.
    Max Cetto, an architect, educator and historian
    Jesús Contreras
    Heberto Castillo, civil engineer
    Miguel Covarrubias, a painter
    José Luis Cuevas
    Mathias Goeritz, a painter, sculptor and architect
    Alan Herrmann cosmetologist
    Frida Kahlo, a painter and wife of Diego Rivera
    Genaro López
    Antonio Rivas Mercado, an architect and engineer
    Gerardo Murillo "Dr. Atl", a painter
    Juan O'Gorman, a painter and architect
    José Clemente Orozco, a muralist
    José María Velasco, a painter
    Diego Rivera, a muralist and husband of Frida Kahlo
    Fernando Romero, an architect
    Veronica Ruiz de Velasco, a figurative artist
    Fernando González Gortazar, an architect and sculptor
    Sebastián, a sculptor
    David Alfaro Siqueiros, a muralist
    Rufino Tamayo, a painter
    Ricardo Legorreta Vilchis, an architect
    Abraham Zabludovsky, architect
    Alejandro Zohn, an architect
    Claudia Cota, an opera singer / actress
    Cesar Vergara, an internationally acclaimed industrial designer who specializes in train design
    Esperanza Vergara Loera, a renamed painter capturing the beauty of horse and its sourroundings
    [edit]
    Authors
    José Agustín
    Ignacio Manuel Altamirano
    Pita Amor
    Juan José Arreola
    Guillermo Arriaga
    Mariano Azuela
    Caridad Bravo Adams
    Rosario Castellanos
    Alí Chumacero
    Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz
    Salvador Elizondo
    José Joaquín Fernández de Lizardi
    Carlos Fuentes
    Maria Luisa Garza "Loreley"
    Manuel Gutiérrez Nájera
    Martín Luis Guzmán
    Esteban Heno
    Luis Laso de la Vega
    Guadalupe Loaeza
    Gregorio López y Fuentes
    Ángeles Mastretta
    Enrique Molina
    Carlos Monsiváis
    Amado Nervo
    Nezahualcoyotl
    Salvador Novo
    Fernando del Paso
    Octavio Paz
    Elena Poniatowska
    Alfonso Reyes
    José Revueltas
    Luis J. Rodriguez
    Juan Rulfo
    Juan Ruiz de Alarcón
    Jaime Sabines
    Paco Ignacio Taibo II
    José Vasconcelos
    Yolanda Vargas Dulché
    Xavier Velasco
    Agustín Yáñez
    Naief Yehya

    I'm taking for granted that you know how to count. The above list is over 30. hahaaaha!

    By Anonymous borderangels, at 8:30 AM, September 03, 2006  

  • borderangels:

    I happened to view your posting this morning. I have to tell you, it provided a lot of laughs for my husband and me. You refer to “illegal aliens (not)” as ignorant yet you wrote to “illegal aliens (not)”, “You are ignorant, I never said that O'Hare wouldn't get flooded with people applying for the maid position. I meant most of them won't be white. In fact, O'Hare will probably hire another immigrant to do the job. 2 reasons: Cost effectiveness and capitalism”. If you didn’t write what you meant, that would point the finger at your ignorance, not his or hers, correct? Besides, as we read it, “illegal aliens (not)” was not posting about the skin colors of people in general or the skin color of potential applicants, but whether they were permanent residents or citizens and not illegal aliens. You can bet your sweet behind that permanent residents and citizens will apply. And, with airport security the way it is, no illegal alien is going to get a job at the airport anyway. You seemed to have confused the points of skin color, illegal aliens, and legal immigrants which, if you read further down, is pretty par for the course for you, and, we might add, pretty ignorant on your behalf..

    We checked out the links that you provided. One is self-admittedly pro-immigration and other is simply a blog. Neither of these sources is credible and their information is suspect. To back up your arguments, can you point us to an even marginally neutral and credible source? That would be much appreciated.

    Then you criticize “illegal aliens (not)” by stating, “You are a crack up you remind of the nursery rhyme: "Three blind mice". You, Yourself and your stupid self. hahaaahaa”. Did you quote a nursery rhyme? Did you write, “hahaaaha”? Sounds to us like rather childish responses that makes us question the veracity and worthiness of your entire postings. We think you might spend too much time reading nursing rhymes in addition to biased web sources.

    Then , what really caused my husband and me to laugh so hard that we cried was your list of famous Mexicans. You need to pull your head out of those nursery rhyme books and learn to read for attention-to-detail and accuracy instead. “Illegal aliens (not)” gave a few names from a list of 30 famous Mexican-Americans. You get the distinction? We’ll point it out to you loud and clear: famous Mexicans---famous Mexican-Americans. Do you see the difference? Is it that “Illegal aliens (not)” Googles like a 14 year old or that your reading comprehension is like an eight year old’s? Embarrassed? We don’t blame for you. You could have spent the time that you took to list those many off-point names and made some headway in “Hickory-Dickery-Dock”. There’s a whole shit load of potential quotes in there for you to use!

    We think you try to make some good points but that they get lost in your childish remarks, questionable references to back up your contentions, sloppy comprehension, and equally sloppy retorts.

    By Anonymous Thinly Disguised, at 10:45 AM, September 03, 2006  

  • To "Daughter of Immigrants” ---
    When you wrote, “No matter where we come from or how we got here, we’re not going anywhere”, you displayed the same offensive attitude of undeserved entitlement that motivates many slime-ball Mexicans to come to and stay in the U.S. illegally. Once these slime-balls get to the U.S., many of them believe that the U.S. and its legal citizens owe them --- owe them jobs, owe them monetary assistance, owe them medical assistance through public aid, and owe them the right to remain in the U.S. just like permanent residents or U.S. citizens. Once here, these slime-ball Mexicans tend to proliferate like wild rabbits, and, then, of course, it is expected that the U.S. owes their progeny and other family members as well. Here’s some news: illegal aliens aren’t owed anything aside from a one-way ticket back to that sewer called Mexico from where they came.
    Don’t you see it coming? Among many U.S. citizens, there’s been an underlying and growing simmering of irritation in regard to illegal aliens’ presence in the U.S. And, now, it’s starting to reach the surface and moving toward the boiling point. Recent news reports tell of rather small to medium towns in America enacting laws to drive the illegal immigrants out. It’s happening on the East Coast, in Mid-America, on the West Coast, and, of course, in the South. It’s the beginnings of a major backlash among the heretofore silent majority who aren’t going to remain sedate nor silent for too much longer.
    Then, you wrote, “And if you are really as inteligent as you want us to believe, remember that California, Texas and other states used to belong to Mexico; our of our "smart" presidents chose to pay the U.S. back the money it had lend us by giving those states to America...with people included; so you see, there are many Mexicans who are American”! First of all, the word is spelled “I-n-t-e-l-l-i-g-e-n-t”, and that you did not spell THAT word correctly is indicative of the quality of your other rantings in your post. I’ve heard Mexicans advance the argument that California, Texas, and other states used to belong to Mexico. So, what? The operative words here are “used to”. So, by your logic, because several current U.S. states used to be part of Mexico, illegal Mexican immigrants should be allowed to come to the U.S. and stay here? I have some advise for you. Rather than seeking to engage in even the most elementary forms of reasoning, your time might be better spent learning to spell.
    The remainder of your posting is simply bullshit rationalizations for the presence of illegal Mexican aliens in the U.S.: that they work hard, that they do work that legal persons in the U.S. don’t want to do, that they’re worthy of respect, that they’re people just like you and me, blah, blah, blah. Tell me, how much should we, the people legally in the U.S., respect slime-ball Mexicans who disregard our laws, illegally cross the border (many with their possibly virulent, undiscovered, and unchecked diseases), increase our crime rates, further the poor academic showing of our schools, make our neighborhoods more toxic, steal jobs from legal residents, undercut our union workers, usurp our resources, refuse to learn English (I’m just wondering, can you correctly spell, “intelligent” in Spanish … I’ll bet that you can), and, worst of all, shout out that they are entitled to be here? You’ll see the answer as the tidal wave backlash builds up over the months ahead. Meanwhile, I’m sure you and others with attitudes similar to yours will continue to give the backlash sustenance by spouting your stupid rationalizations and engaging in those tiresome and, ultimately, self-defeating rallies and marches.

    By Anonymous Poor You (Not), at 10:47 AM, September 03, 2006  

  • If it were not for Cuba and other latin American countries, the USA as we know it would not be an independent nation, but instead would have been like Canada or Australia, and we would have been a commonwealth country.
    George Washington would be the first to order an addition in the school history textbooks. Nobody could better appreciate the million pound sterling given as contribution by the ladies of Havana, and which helped him provision his army, then lacking in food, weapons and ammunition, to definitely beat the British in the battle of Yorktown on October 31st, 1781.Certain scholars and university professors from the United States have claimed for years the right of U.S. students, including those of Latin origin, to learn about the support by Spaniards, Cubans, Mexicans and other Latin American and Caribbean countries in the 13 Colonies´ War of Independence.Even today the European participation, particularly the French, is the only one spoken about, and the names of Lafayette, Von Steuben, Kalb, amongst others, are praised. Historian Stephan Bonsal affirms in one of his books that the monetary contribution of the Cuban women "can be considered, truly, as the foundation on which the building of North American independence was erected". History is like that. In the spring of 1781, Washington reported to the General Count of Rochambeau, Chief of the French Forces in North American territory, of the logistics needs of his troops, calculated to total one million two hundred thousand (1,200,000) pound sterling. The military man asked Degrasse, Admiral of the French Fleet anchored in Santo Domingo, for this amount, considered a fortune at the time. The seaman attempted to collect the money on that island, but that was impossible. He then sent three of his ships to Havana, one of which was being captained by the famous Saint Simon. Wealthy women, the wives and daughters of the colony's high officials, merchants and Creole landowners, stripped themselves of their jewelry, to make this donation, the reasons for which would have to be searched in their solidarity feelings for the North American people, or in their hatred for England, which had governed and ill-treated the inhabitants of Havana in 762. The fact is that their sacrifice covered almost the total needed, distributed afterwards amongst the independence troops and the French.Cuba's Captain General at the time was Juan Manuel Cagigal, who had an aid named Francisco de Miranda, later forerunner of independence in the Latin American countries. Both fought on the insurgent side in the battle of Pensacola, led by Bernardo Gálvez, Spanish Governor of Louisiana who since 1777 supported the revolutionaries of the 13 Colonies. Galveston was so baptized to honor him. In Pensacola in 1781, like in Mobile in 1780, four thousand (4,000) soldiers from Cuba, many of whom were natives, whites and blacks from the island; two thousand (2,000) from Mexico and hundreds from Puerto Rico, Haiti, Santo Domingo, fought there.The story could be written in the present, but it happened in the indelible and irreplaceable past. George Washington would be the first to attest to this.

    By Anonymous learn history, at 1:27 PM, September 03, 2006  

  • A wonderful history lesson but what does it have to do with the enormous burden of ILLEGAL immigration?

    By Anonymous thankyou, at 2:55 PM, September 03, 2006  

  • What is the burden of illegal immigration? How is it an asset?

    By Blogger Carl Nyberg, at 2:59 PM, September 03, 2006  

  • Thinly Disguised:

    Your husband and you need comprehension classes. Yes, your antics and name calling are childish. I was referring to famous Mexicans with a variety of categories to choose from on Wikepedia's site. Your buddy, did not specifically state Mexican Americans - did he? No, please take the time to read instead of hastily typing your hate phrases which are quite laughable. Also, try breathing in between sentences with a period. Here's another laugh for you and your husband try a little thing called "grammar".

    Also, please do study the list as well as history -- many of those on the list migrated to America and became "Mexican Americans".

    Embarrased yet or is your seathing anger keeping you awake at night?


    P.S. Since when did Google's articles become a "credible source". Again, you and I guess now your husband are huge crack ups. I hear your theme song playing "Bring in the Clowns".

    By Anonymous borderangels, at 7:48 PM, September 03, 2006  

  • Here's a simple question if they are undocumented how did Borjas conduct the survey that the anti-immigrant crowd is using? Is that a credible source?

    Here is another myth about the undocumented, they do pay taxes? They use fake social security numbers and the employers deduct FICA and State taxes. They also pay the same sales tax that you and I pay. However, they cannot participate in welfare or social security benefits. Another myth that has been stated.

    Also, how would a hospitals know if an immigrant is legal or not. All the rhetoric coming from the anti-illegal camp is not credible and only meant to fan nationalistic flames.

    As far as the dumbing of American children and our education system; we (Americans) have ourselves to blame. Other nations have exceeded our children's test scores for generations. Thanks to MTV and videogames. I don't think you can blame one nationality for society's ills.

    Last time I checked, there were more Caucasian people on welfare and unemployment.

    I think we as Americans have been given the tools to succeed. Some of us have taken advantage of those tools others blame another nationality for their lack of employment, this is deflective thinking. Think about it you were born and educated in America. You are not bound to one job or one career, you can educate yourself and choose a career to improve your lives. Instead you gripe about how a minimum wage lady is cleaning toilets at O'Hare. Why wouldn't you as an American try to achieve more since this is the "land of opportunity". Hispanic business and entrepeneaurs have grown by 31%, yet Americans still gripe at loosing their jobs. What jobs are they loosing and is America aiming to low?

    If a maid, janitor, or someone on a lawn mower bothers some of you then may I suggest setting your standards higher. After all this is the land of "opportunity" even for underachievers. Take note because hard work does pay off.

    By Anonymous payattention, at 8:27 PM, September 03, 2006  

  • While there are some who oppose the "illegal" immigration to the US who raise legitimate questions that I also wrestle with. Most of the anti-Mexican (Hispanic) immigrants responding here are just as racist as the anti-Irish, anti-Jewish and anti every other wave of immigration, legal and illegal that has made this country what it is. I am proud to live in an immediate neighborhood that is majority, or close to it, Hispanic-American. My neighbors, legal and illegal, by and large are just as law-abiding, hardworking, honest, family oriented, etc as their African-American and European-American neighbors. Some of the most racist comments, too many and too anonymous to cite, probably hang out at the tavern just north of Triton that proudly flies its racist Confederate flag!! Need I say more?

    By Anonymous garywoll, at 12:07 AM, September 04, 2006  

  • To garywoll:

    Here, again, you communicate in a wollfully inadequate fashion. As has been the case with a number of your other posts on this blog and, dare I say, with your political career in general, you have said little substantive. And, at least one of your remarks in your posting is just plain stupid. For example, you wrote, “Most of the anti-Mexican (Hispanic) immigrants responding here are just as racist as the anti-Irish, anti-Jewish and anti every other wave of immigration, legal and illegal that has made this country what it is”. How do you balance, compare, and contrast the degree of racism you say is exhibited on the posts here toward Mexicans with the degree of racism exhibited toward the Irish, the Jews, and every other wave of immigration? What is your measure or are you just blowing out hot air again? If you read many of the posts here carefully instead of responding in a knee-jerk, kiss-my-constituents’-asses manner, you will find that the most of the arguments have been centered on *illegal immigration* specifically relating to Mexicans. Why Mexicans? Well, could it be that they represent the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens entering this country? Illegal Mexican aliens are just a specific and premier example of a general problem. What group should be focused on instead? Maybe the Moldavians? I’ll grant you that some disparaging language has been used, but, as I read the posts that I think that you refer to, only to embellish (but possibly ending up detracting from) the central point which I stated above.

    Then you wrote, “My neighbors, legal and illegal, by and large are just as law-abiding, hardworking, honest, family oriented, etc as their African-American and European-American and European neighbors”. You have to be shitting me! Your duplicity comes through loud and clear with that statement. How can one be law-abiding having broken the law? How can your neighbors, who are here illegally, be just as law abiding as your African-American, European-American, and European neighbors? Are all of your African-American, European-American, and European neighbors here illegally? You speak out of both sides of your mouth and the resulting gibberish only placates the intellectually lowest-common-denominator and reaffirms to the more sophisticated what a panderer you are.

    And then there’s this, “While there are some who oppose the "illegal" immigration to the US who raise legitimate questions that I also wrestle with …”. You wrestle with these questions? O.k., Mr. Bend-Down-And-I’ll-Kiss-Your-Ass, tell us what the issues are that you’re wrestling with and how you’re wrestling with them. You conveniently left those points out in favor of the contradictory pap that you tried to feed us.

    You know, you should confine yourself to innocuous and bland postings like the one describing the local Democratic Party meeting. It’s not worth it to you to risk losing a constituent by trying to tackle controversial issues even if you might gain others’ respect by doing so, is it?

    By Anonymous Assume the Position, at 10:49 AM, September 04, 2006  

  • To garywoll:

    Here, again, you communicate in a wollfully inadequate fashion. As has been the case with a number of your other posts on this blog and, dare I say, with your political career in general, you have said little substantive. And, at least one of your remarks in your posting is just plain stupid. For example, you wrote, “Most of the anti-Mexican (Hispanic) immigrants responding here are just as racist as the anti-Irish, anti-Jewish and anti every other wave of immigration, legal and illegal that has made this country what it is”. How do you balance, compare, and contrast the degree of racism you say is exhibited on the posts here toward Mexicans with the degree of racism exhibited toward the Irish, the Jews, and every other wave of immigration? What is your measure or are you just blowing out hot air again? If you read many of the posts here carefully instead of responding in a knee-jerk, kiss-my-constituents’-asses manner, you will find that the most of the arguments have been centered on *illegal immigration* specifically relating to Mexicans. Why Mexicans? Well, could it be that they represent the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens entering this country? Illegal Mexican aliens are just a specific and premier example of a general problem. What group should be focused on instead? Maybe the Moldavians? I’ll grant you that some disparaging language has been used, but, as I read the posts that I think that you refer to, only to embellish (but possibly ending up detracting from) the central point which I stated above.

    Then you wrote, “My neighbors, legal and illegal, by and large are just as law-abiding, hardworking, honest, family oriented, etc as their African-American and European-American and European neighbors”. You have to be shitting me! Your duplicity comes through loud and clear with that statement. How can one be law-abiding having broken the law? How can your neighbors, who are here illegally, be just as law abiding as your African-American, European-American, and European neighbors? Are all of your African-American, European-American, and European neighbors here illegally? You speak out of both sides of your mouth and the resulting gibberish only placates the intellectually lowest-common-denominator and reaffirms to the more sophisticated what a panderer you are.

    And then there’s this, “While there are some who oppose the "illegal" immigration to the US who raise legitimate questions that I also wrestle with …”. You wrestle with these questions? O.k., Mr. Bend-Down-And-I’ll-Kiss-Your-Ass, tell us what the issues are that you’re wrestling with and how you’re wrestling with them. You conveniently left those points out in favor of the contradictory pap that you tried to feed us.

    You know, you should confine yourself to innocuous and bland postings like the one describing the local Democratic Party meeting. It’s not worth it to you to risk losing a constituent by trying to tackle controversial issues even if you might gain others’ respect by doing so, is it?

    By Anonymous Assume the Position, at 10:53 AM, September 04, 2006  

  • The Trib had an article about the Berwyn police having to beef up their force cause of all kinds of increased crime on the North side of Berwyn around Roosevelt Road. Any guesses what's going on there?

    By Anonymous Wondering, at 8:31 AM, September 05, 2006  

  • Who hasn't broken the law - speeding is breaking the law? Spitting on a side walk in certain Cities and/or Villages is also considered breaking the law.

    True illegal immigration is a misdemeanor...but what about the "overstayers". A few of them were given student visas so that they could blow up the world trade center.

    I see who is talking out of both sides of their mouth one that has assumed all positions. The best one you can account for was probably on your back.

    By Anonymous good4laughs, at 7:26 PM, September 05, 2006  

  • Source: New York Times, 9/3/06

    Keep in mind, the statistics below are just for Colorado. Any social security surpluses due to illegal aliens’ contributions are more than off-set when nation-wide costs as a result of illegal aliens are taken into account. Furthermore, the impact of the costs nation-wide affects all Americans, no matter their age.

    Senate Budget Committee

    On Wednesday, August 30, 2006, the Senate Budget Committee held a hearing in Aurora, Colorado entitled "Budget Impact of Current and Proposed Border Security and Immigration Policies." Senator Wayne Allard (R-CO) presided over the hearing that examined the costs of illegal immigration policies on local, state and federal governments. Allard began the hearing by stating that Colorado should have a voice in the immigration debate and that the public needs to be educated on how pending legislation in Congress will affect state and local budgets.


    The first panel of witnesses included Colorado Governor Bill Owens; Mr. Paul Cullinan, Chief of Human Resources Cost Estimates, Congressional Budget Office; and Mr. Robert Rector, Senior Research Fellow, The Heritage Foundation. A second panel of witnesses included Mayor Ed Tauer of Aurora, Colorado; Ms. Paula Presley, Commander, El Paso County Sheriff's Office; Mr. Dan Rubenstein, Chief Deputy District Attorney and Mesa County Meth Task Force Executive Board Member; Mr. Tony Gagliardi, Colorado State Director, National Federation of Independent Businesses; Ms. Helen Krieble, President and Founder, The Vernon K. Krieble Foundation; and Mr. Kenneth Buck, Weld County District Attorney.

    Governor Owens testified that illegal aliens cost the state of Colorado well into the millions of dollars per year. In particular, he said, educating illegal aliens costs the state more than $300 million a year. He continued by saying the state has its hands tied because federal law prohibits asking students if they are citizens or if they have legal immigrant status. "There are real numbers, and real costs, to taxpayers," Owens said. "Illegal immigration is one of the driving forces involved in these costs and unless we stem the tide, those costs will escalate."

    Aurora Mayor Ed Tauer testified that hospital care for illegal aliens in Aurora costs almost $10 million per year and his city pays more than $5 million for police and fire services provided to illegal aliens. "This is the number one issue that citizens of Colorado are concerned about," said Mayor Tauer.

    Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation said, "The actual costs of low-skilled immigrants are much more than anyone estimates." Both Rector and Paul Cullinan of the Congressional Budget Office said the Senate guest worker amnesty will cost taxpayers billions of dollars. Mr. Cullinan said the legislation could cost at least $49 billion over the next decade, compared with $2 billion for the House enforcement bill. Rector and Cullinan again agreed that the taxes immigrants would pay will not offset the costs because they are often low-skilled workers who earn less than others in the workforce.

    By Anonymous Where's Our Money Going?, at 7:14 AM, September 06, 2006  

  • So a bunch of Congressional leaders got together to regurgitate Pat Buchannen's why illegals cost the economy BS rhetoric. Wait until the vegetable and fruit pickers that are American demand minimum wage or more plus benefits. Watch your economy boom then, with a price inflated can of corn.

    ...and it is not suprising to me that a Senator would advocate for hate, does anyone remember Senator Robert Byrd and his affilliations with the KKK from the South. Most African Americans do. Senator Byrd was not the only one in bed with white supremacist groups. But I guess that whole 60s civil rights movement meant nothing and the evil hate mongrels are back at it; only thing is they decided to hate a nationality.

    BTW, how did any of this rhetoric become gospel? I mean if they are undocumented who the hell is doing the documentation.

    Just because someone is of Mexican or Spanish desent that does not make them illegal. True coming here illegally costs but what is most costly to Americans is a government with no control.

    Your $9.00 welfare and "do-gooder" contribution is great but most of your money goes to Federal overspending. Yes, it is true that the rest is disposable income for Bush. It is his overspending that has cost the economy. That is the real truth. I may not quote pompous senators or even pontificate - I just state plain and simply so all laments can understand. Illegals are not costing nearly as much as 2 wars and economy that has gone awry.

    Speaking of real life experiences our education system has also sucked us dry. I personally know a payroll clerk for a suburb school who is making $65,000/yr. Now, you tell me why someone without a college degree should be making so much to write checks. They call her a "supervisor" but she does not supervise a single person (she has no staff). Why is it teachers work for 9 months and demand such high saleries. Most of the money being sucked up is for administration and its not like the kids are coming out more intelligent. Other nations have far exceeded test scores of American children. I don't understand why teachers are not getting fired for their inadequacies and if they are fired how easy it is for them to get a job elsewhere. If the fruits of my work were rotten, my employer would can me but in an education profession you can linger on and retire with benefits.

    I also love when elitist refer to minimum wage people as not contributing to the economy -- Dumbass its their labor that major coporations profit from. What do you tell the people at the bottom - don't work, you don't matter and your contributions are insignificant?

    Which reminds me, I seen a whole buch of Mexicans working on state highways....hmmm labor force. Labor forces there are varieties to choose from: lets see, you have Tyson chicken, Ore-Ida foods, Maid Service, Childcare, concrete and foundation, blacktop and roofing.

    I'm sure good ol' soccer mom will appreciate driving to McDonalds and paying $9.00 for a box of chicken fingers rather than the old $2.99. That is simple economy.

    This was a little bit of a rant. But I think as a whole, we cannot blame all of societies pains on one nationality.

    By Anonymous letsgetittogether, at 9:05 AM, September 06, 2006  

  • To letsgetittogether:

    You wrote, "...and it is not suprising to me that a Senator would advocate for hate, does anyone remember Senator Robert Byrd". Is Senator Allard advocating for hate? Was that the purpose of the Senate Budget Committee Meeting? You're just playing the "guilt by association" gambit which is so very transparent. Why didn't you compare Senator Allard to Hitler; it seems more your style.

    Then you wrote, "Just because someone is of Mexican or Spanish desent that does not make them illegal. True coming here illegally costs but what is most costly to Americans is a government with no control". That's precisely the point, isn't it --- governmental control of illegal aliens and controlling the substantial costs that they burden our economy with.

    Then you wrote more crapola, "Illegals are not costing nearly as much as 2 wars and economy that has gone awry". So, because we've spent on two wars and have, as you say, an economy that has gone awry, we should continue to allow the negative impact illegal aliens have on our economy to spiral out of control?

    I don't think most people are blaming all of society's pains on one nationality. Those who do so would have weak reasoning abilities such as you display. However, I do think that illegal aliens coming to and currently in the U.S., for the most part who are Mexicans, severely negatively impact our economy.

    Rant all you want, but maybe you should try to intersperse a little logic into your rants.

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 10:16 AM, September 06, 2006  

  • pretzel logic?

    If you saw studies that showed illegal immigrants pay as much in taxes as they consume in services, would you change your tune on illegal immigration?

    By Blogger Carl Nyberg, at 1:15 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • Carl:

    No, because the ends do not justify the means and illegal is illegal. If a gangster or corporate criminal contributed 50% percent of his ill-gotten gains to charity, would that justify the illegality that he engaged in? The fact is that illegal aliens are in a state of "perpetual illegality". *Whatever* money that they earn is, in a sense, being stolen from lawful residents who could potentially earn that money in those same jobs taken by illegal aliens. And, please, let's not even go to the fallacious argument that permanent residents and/or citizens do not want such jobs.

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 1:48 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • pretzel, do you understand that when more people participate in an economy that the whole economy grows?

    The United States is bigger than it was 50 years ago. And 50 years ago it was bigger than it was 100 years ago.

    And we're better off than 50 years ago by a number of standards. We're certainly better off than 100 years ago.

    By Blogger Carl Nyberg, at 3:56 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • Hey PretzelLogic, the shoe fits.

    I'm talking about Senator Robert Byrd. Please do your homework before spouting out at the mouth.

    Read first:

    "Senator Robert Byrd and his affilliations with the KKK from"

    By Anonymous letsgetittogether, at 6:29 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • Also pretzel brain... be specific "what money earned is being lost or used by illegals". They can't take welfare which the majority of "white" Caucasions are taking.

    Facts are facts. Try getting some.
    All your accusations are based off of "fear".

    By Anonymous letsgetittogether, at 6:33 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • Carl:

    I began scratching my head in puzzlement regarding the point that you were trying to make with this tautology: "pretzel, do you understand that when more people participate in an economy that the whole economy grows?". Sure, Carl, just like I understand that, the higher up one climbs, the further up he is. Perhaps, you mean by the word, "grows", that the economy improves? And, if so, it seems to me that you want to directly relate economic improvement to increasing numbers of participants in the economy. Prima facie, this contention does not hold true across the board. Take, for example, African countries with high birthrates which contribute directly to increased poverty and quality of life among the general population.

    Of course, you were writing about the U.S. Frankly, I don't see how the massive influx of illegal Mexican aliens, just to use the most flagrantly offending group as an example, has improved our economy over the past 50 or 100 years. I understand that you can point to the surplus in the social security kitty as I can point to the enormous extra costs in education, health care, and other expended resources. What standard do you want to use? Prices for consumables have skyrocketed. Prices for medical services, education, policing, you name it have shot through the ceiling. Please explain to me how the constant and enormous flow of illegal Mexican aliens into the U.S. raises our standard of living. I'm all ears (or eyes, rather).

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 6:34 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • To letsgetittogether:

    You wrote, "I'm talking about Senator Robert Byrd. Please do your homework before spouting out at the mouth". Yes, and you were comparing him to Senator Allard in terms of advocating for hate, correct? If not, why did you bring up Senator Byrd's name in relationship to Senator Allard's committee meeting? It was you who was spouting off at the mouth as anyone can plainly see, and you haven't got the courage or the sense to admit it. Admit it.

    What money is being lost? Any job that an illegal alien has and the money he earns is a job that a permanent resident or citizen doesn't have and doesn't earn money from. That's money lost for the person legally here. Get the logic? And spare me the bullshit about people legally here not wanting or needing menial jobs. I certainly said nothing about welfare in my post. You pulled that one right out of you ___. You have an amazing penchant for and command of gibberish.

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 6:47 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • I think a severe negative impact is funding a war that had no merit, plan or end in sight. There have been plenty of "illegal aliens" serving this country for citizenship status. Some have died while others have lost limbs.

    Here's another waste paying for the National Guards to be at the border, while continuing to pay Border Patrol. If Border Patrol is not doing the right job then why pay for both units to be there. I think its a waste of money to pay for Homeland Security and still continue to pay the CIA and FBI; what are they doing for us. The list of overspending can go on and on and none of it has to do with illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants have helped this country through its labor force to not recognize it is absurd. Unless other motives keep you blind.

    I don't think its pretzel logic to imagine paying $5.50 plus benefits to an employee for picking tomatoes, lettuce and or other fruits and vegetables; then expect to pay the same .79 cents for a can of corn. It will not happen.

    Illegal immigrants have kept our economy stable. I think people look at 2nd generation gang bangers and think they are illegal and should go back to Mexico. I wish there was a place to put all the criminal elements not just Mexicans. Those are the ones that are in gang wars and go to hospitals expecting a "free pass".

    Most elderly illegal Mexicans have worked their asses off and have paid their debt. Some have started new business (surveys indicate that Hispanic businesses have grown 31%). That is giving back to the community through sales tax revenues and other taxes paid by them. Mexicans have made contributions to America.

    Maybe its as simple as loving thy neighbor as you love thyself.

    The American system aims at a free society where life, liberty and a host of inalienable human rights are guaranteed by its Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Human rights in the United States of America are built on the self-evident truth that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with natural human rights.”

    All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...

    By Anonymous working2gether, at 7:05 PM, September 06, 2006  

  • To working2gether:

    You've added some twists to that convoluted pretzel called illogic: (1). "I think a severe negative impact is funding a war that had no merit, plan or end in sight". So, what does this have to do with the vast waste of money generated as a result of illegal aliens coming to and being in America? And, again, (2). "Here's another waste paying for the National Guards to be at the border, while continuing to pay Border Patrol. If Border Patrol is not doing the right job then why pay for both units to be there. I think its a waste of money to pay for Homeland Security and still continue to pay the CIA and FBI; what are they doing for us. The list of overspending can go on and on AND NONE OF IT HAS TO DO WITH WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS". You are so right in your contention that none of it has anything to do with illegal immigrants and so wrong in implying that allegedly wasteful spending in one area justifies wasteful spending in other areas. That's a big twist in the pretzel.

    Then, there's, (3). "The American system aims at a free society where life, liberty and a host of inalienable human rights are guaranteed by its Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Human rights in the United States of America are built on the self-evident truth that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with natural human rights.”

    All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...". Thanks for quoting from the *American* Constitution which guarantees rights to Americans --- not illegal aliens. If you're such a believer in the American Constitution and the laws which are generated from it, then I would assume that you will readily admit that our entry laws should not be broken by any people? Or, do you just cite the Constitution to buttress your own personal and illogical beliefs?

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 8:17 AM, September 07, 2006  

  • To Pretzel Logic:

    Did the constitution specifically say these rights are guaranteed to only Americans?

    I don't think so; there's no pretzel logic in that just the truth. All men were created equal and as Abe further stated, they were endowed with certain inalienable rights. Now, as much as minutescam and SaveorState would like to twist things there are no twists. It is what it is.

    Regarding waste; I'm referring to government "overspending" does this justify undocumented entry, of course not. However, the people coming in are not on welfare and their working for a living which is more than I can say for the majority of "Americans".

    Some laws shouldn't be cited because they are just "dumb" for lack of a better word.

    I guess my question to you is...If America was taken over by terrorist and you had to run to Canada to feed your family would you stay in America and starve. Most people think survival first. Humans go on and perserver where many laws have failed and are extinct.

    I know you haven't had the need to fight for survival therefore you do not know what you would or wouldn't do.

    By Anonymous working2gether, at 7:50 PM, September 07, 2006  

  • BTW - it is not illogical to self preserve; in most cases it necessary and human instinct. I will note that your case is the exception.

    By Anonymous working2gether, at 7:51 PM, September 07, 2006  

  • To “working2gether”:

    Your already-flawed logic just continues to deteriorate in regard to your 9/7, 7:50 pm and 7:51 pm, posts. You just make less and less sense with each of your successive posts. You wrote, “Did the (American) constitution specifically say these rights (as cited in the Bill of Rights and American Constitution) are guaranteed to only Americans”?. No, of course not. The American Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantee the rights of Americans to all of the non-U.S. citizens of all of the other nations in the world including such diverse nations as Finland, Greece, Kyrgyzstan, New Zealand, and, of course, Mexico, with special emphasis on illegal Mexican aliens who enter or live in America.

    You keep on quoting that “All men were created equal and as Abe further stated, they were endowed with certain inalienable rights”. So, in your convoluted, bowel-like mind, this justifies the entry of and/or presence of illegal aliens in America? The words, “All men are created equal” and “(all people have) certain inalienable rights”, and the underlying philosophies these words express are not tantamount to nor do they justify the breaking of the law by illegal aliens. Maybe you didn’t cover this in your U.S. citizenship class.

    You wrote, “Regarding waste; I'm referring to government "overspending" does this justify undocumented entry, of course not. However, the people coming in are not on welfare and their working for a living which is more than I can say for the majority of "Americans". What? Oh, I see. In your view, the majority of “Americans” are on welfare and not working for their living. Speaking of “waste”, your bowel-like mind is really working overtime and starting to stink to high heaven. As you write it, the majority of “Americans” (whoever they are in the quotation marks) are lazy and slurping from the public trough whereas the virtuous and hard-working illegal aliens are really the people to be admired. Yeah, right. You fail to state that the reason these illegal aliens aren’t on welfare is because, by law, the majority of them can’t be. If they could be, my guess is that they would be --- in large numbers, and draining the system dry. You strike me as blatantly anti-American. You seem like a parasite or a virus which enjoys the benefits of its host, America, and, simultaneously, tries to tear it down. You manifest the same undeserving sense of entitlement that so many illegal aliens and their supporters espouse. These criminals illegally come to America, usurp its resources, and then claim that they have every right to be here.

    You say, “Some laws shouldn't be cited because they are just "dumb" for lack of a better word”. These would be the laws pertaining to illegal aliens, right? They’re dumb laws because they don’t support your twisted and anti-American point of view. You title your postings, “letwork2gether”, but it seems that you’re only willing to work with those who support your skewed and illogical beliefs.

    Then you rant about survival and self-preservation. Of course, you’re using these terms as a justification for the presence of illegal aliens here. If America opened its borders to any citizen of any nation who was fighting for self-preservation or just to make a better life, I question how long or how well America would survive especially after 9/11. In terms of allowing more Mexicans in, well, it’s my opinion that we have way, way too many of them already. Many of the ones already here can barely subsist or end up dying. They die crossing the border, their children die in apartment fires (which, by the way, was a real tragedy and my condolescences go out to the family), they die or get maimed or injured on the job, they die and kill others in vehicle accidents (with no insurance, of course), they form gangs which injure and kill others, etc. This is not an argument to swing the doors open, let more in, and let them increasingly and voraciously devour our resources. Quite the contrary, it’s an argument to slam the door in their faces. It’s really for their own good, you know?

    You can correctly argue that such events often occur to permanent residents and/or citizens, but what’s so disgusting when such events happen with the involvement of or to illegal aliens is that they had no business being here in the first place. Their drive for self-preservation might have been better served by remaining in Mexico despite the filth, corruption, and chaos there created largely by Mexicans themselves.

    Let’s keep these posts going because you’re going to increasingly tip your biased and ignorant hand for all of this blog’s readers to see. They will continue to see just how incredibly stupid, I mean down-right stupid, you are. Pissed off? Good, now sit down and write another posting!

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 8:21 AM, September 08, 2006  

  • Pretzel and working2gether:

    you both make good points especially you pretzel but both of you should stop the name calling. it doesn't add anything.

    By Anonymous Civil, at 10:08 AM, September 08, 2006  

  • Civil:

    Point well-taken. I'll try to refrain from making the derogatory remarks.

    By Anonymous Pretzel Logic?, at 11:01 AM, September 08, 2006  

  • Pretzel I am neither a parasite or virus. Where is your anger coming from. I am a veteran and 2nd generation proud American. I understand the true meaning of being an American and have traveled to many countries to witness the impoverished state in which certain people live. It is my opinion that if other third world countries lived closer they would be in America.

    I find myself asking are those other countries a prosperous, free, first world country like America? There is no country in the world like America, which is why immigrants are drawn to this country like a magnet. We are not suppose to take other countries examples but to set our own as world leaders. 12-20 plus undocumented workers are hidden in the shadows of America today. We do not see them or recognize them because they look like you and I - human! There is plenty of living space and job opportunities even with the undocumented workers in the country today. Have you seen all the employment ads in the newspaper, internet, and businesses? If you haven't, then you are looking for work with the intention of not wanting to work.

    With our current immigration policies, it would be wise to revise the law so that immigrants who are here to just work can voluntarily return to Mexico at the end of the farming season, regardless of income. Such revisions would allow for better border security, as it is a wasted effort in security for border patrols to deal with undocumented workers as opposed to gangs, criminals, and terrorist. The majority of undocumented foreigners that come in through our borders are coming in search of work.

    Not to change the subject but 9/11 was not done by people who crossed a 50 mile hot desert border but rather by people who traveled via airplane on a visa. In fact most terrorists have traveled to America vis a vis a student visa. While I don't dismiss that a terrorist could come through the border, it just hasn't happened. Which brings me to my next comment, why isn't the northern or student visa under scrutiny. I'll tell you why because its really not about homeland security for some; its actually about hate.

    I don't see you coming up with a middle ground that would constitute working together instead I see you using such phrases as virus, and other crazy rants. Does that somehow make your point or does it only prove my point about hatred?

    If illegal is illegal, then a Guest Worker program is not amnesty. Fines and penalties is not anmesty. I believe our President said it would be neither wise or prudent to send 12 million people back to Mexico. Is he anti-American or just plain wise.

    Do you think you will spend less tax dollars if Mexicans weren't here? Do you actually believe you will be pardoned from paying taxes or miraculously have to pay less? Now that is illogical thinking.

    Admittingly, many tragedies do occur in our nation such as house fires but I don't think that house fires only occur in Mexican housing. I believe trailer parks and African American communities also experience house fires. There is a lot to be said for fire alarms and fire safety (don't take it for granted and check your own fire alarm battereies). Your statement or analogy regarding fires is indicative of your own personal lack of fire safety.

    My next comment is about your statement with regards to the corrupt Mexican government. We America wouldn't stand for that - right? No, not at all. Through the years we have been privied to all of Illinois (especially Chicago) government corruption as well as other states. Are the people at the bottom responsible for that no? Have we done everything we could to make sure that corruption does not exist here in America? As world leaders America boasts of democracy and advocated freedom; yet it takes years to take a crooked politician out of office and haven't we set our own example. You know the terrorist who carried out 9/11 were trained by us.

    My question to you is when are you planning to overthrow the corrupt government and take back our tax dollars? You point a finger at other people and accuse them of not doing all that they can for their government and country yet sit back in your barcal lounger playing keyboard hypocrisy.

    Lastly, I am not pissed off - I'm laughing at your obvious anger.

    By Anonymous working2gether, at 5:28 PM, September 08, 2006  

  • my bad I meant hatred and bigotry view.

    By Anonymous working2gether, at 7:20 PM, September 08, 2006  

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